Sage

Discussions pertinent to the rules rewrite

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Re: Sage

Postby Sparks » Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:11 pm

Also, how's this for the second basic

I'm sure I've seen that before

Once per X, you may, on coming across unfamiliar symbols, writings, creatures or objects, recognise it sufficiently to know what lore would be required to understand it fully.

This does not grant you any tangible information. For instance, on seeing an eldar carving, you would recognise it as a Xenos marking, rather than heretical or technical

Upgrade: 3 times per X

Upgrade: This now gives you some extremely general information. For instance, on seeing an eldar carving, you would recognise it as Eldar, but gain no further information.


What's the point?

Basically, it's a smartarse enabler. You can look at the most bizzare thing, and know what field it would relate to, even if you know naff all about it. You can then engage the right person to get the info, or go ask for a book on the topic, or something similar, letting you be useful outside of your chosen field.

Practical: Advanced Upgrade 2

Fascinating...

Your practical knowledge in your field is nearly unparralelled. Where otheres would take months of research to discover how to utilise the artefacts you find on your travels, you can almost instinctively operate them.

Once per X, you may, when presented with an unfamiliar situation, use your practical knowledge to actively interact with it, without the need for further research.

Examples include:

Forbidden Lore: Demonology - Interact with a summoning ritual to disrupt it, or complete it.
Forbidden lore: Xenos - Operate a complex alien weapon
Lore: Archaeotech - Activate/operate a complicated archaotech device

Of course, acting in haste is not always the safest thing to do...

Upgrade: You will now be warned what the negative consequences of your hasty actions will be to your character.
Upgrade: You will now be warned what the negative consequences of your hasty actions will be to other characters in the vicinity.


I can see the last one driving the ad mech bonkers.

Where i've written X, I mean per combat/day/event. To be decided by the refs for game balancr.
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Re: Sage

Postby Designer Bloodstain » Sun Sep 15, 2013 5:50 pm

I do quite like that second one...
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Re: Sage

Postby mindwanders » Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:22 pm

We've had some great feedback on Sage talents and we'd like to push to get them finalised soon.

I've added "I'm sure I've seen that before" and "Fascinating..." into the tree. I think they are both great suggestions and I'd love to hear your opinions on them?

Should "I'm sure I've seen that before" be the first basic talent due to general utility?

I've also expanded the list for Pens to Swords and I'd love some more suggestions to fill the gaps? I’ve added a requirement of Intermediate in the Knowledge skill to use it. Does that sound fair?
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Re: Sage

Postby Sparks » Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:12 am

Taking the forbidden lore skills specifically

Forbidden Lore: Daemons - +1 damage vs Daemons for one combat. Not sure I like that. It's good, dont get me wrong, just dosent feel right. Daemons should be a bitch to kill. How about a corruption resist by saying protective prayers etc? Is that too powerful?

Forbidden Lore: Heresy - +1 Interrogation when interrogating heretics.

Forbidden Lore: Mutants - +1 Damage Vs Mutants: Knowledge of their wierd anatomy etc translates quite well here I feel.

Forbidden Lore: Navigators - Similar to Lore: Military I think, +1 leadership when dealing with navigators. Or possibly +1 Bargain when negotiating with them.

Forbidden Lore: Psykers - Same as the navigator one above would make sense, but dosent feel right. Plus, dont want to over-use the same effect.

Forbidden Lore: Warp - Psykers may increase their push level by 1, once, by being told how to draw more power from the warp. Can you feel the heresy yet?
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Re: Sage

Postby Sparks » Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:19 am

As for putting "I'm sure I;ve seen that before" as the basic level talent, dosent make any difference to me, as I'll be buying in as a minor archetype anyway. THat's down to the Sage players I'd say.
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Re: Sage

Postby mindwanders » Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:54 pm

Forbidden Lore: Daemons - +1 damage vs Daemons for one combat. Not sure I like that. It's good, dont get me wrong, just dosent feel right. Daemons should be a bitch to kill. How about a corruption resist by saying protective prayers etc? Is that too powerful?


I quite like it. Demons are a bitch to kill because people don't understand them and fear the very concept. How many characters could you actually explain enough about demons to without them wanting to kill you or starting them on the slide to chaos?

Forbidden Lore: Heresy - +1 Interrogation when interrogating heretics.

I like that.
Forbidden Lore: Mutants - +1 Damage Vs Mutants: Knowledge of their wierd anatomy etc translates quite well here I feel.

Not sure about this one. Every mutant is very different and I just don't know if you could give enough advice to help in a short RP session.
Resisting corruptions is powerful and rare and complicated. I'd prefer not to if we can.

Forbidden Lore: Navigators - Similar to Lore: Military I think, +1 leadership when dealing with navigators. Or possibly +1 Bargain when negotiating with them.

I was thinking Bargain. But I don't want to over use it if I can help it.
Forbidden Lore: Psykers - Same as the navigator one above would make sense, but dosent feel right. Plus, dont want to over-use the same effect.
Psykers are even more disparate than navigators. I just don't think they have enough in common to be able to call +1 to a social stat.

Forbidden Lore: Warp - Psykers may increase their push level by 1, once, by being told how to draw more power from the warp. Can you feel the heresy yet?

That's an interesting idea. Maybe better for Forbidden Lore Psykers?
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Re: Sage

Postby sienf » Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:42 pm

Just to add my 2c: I really love the new split and, although I have no second thoughts about which branch my current character will be going down, think both are brilliant. For the most part I just think the new talents are great, but...

Yoda wrote:[...]
I'm sure I've seen that before
Once times per Encounter, you may, on coming across unfamiliar symbols, writings, creatures or objects, recognise it sufficiently to know what lore would be required to understand it fully. This does not grant you any tangible information. For instance, on seeing an eldar carving, you would recognise it as a Xenos marking, rather than heretical or technical
  • Upgrade: 3 times per Encounter
  • Upgrade: This now gives you some extremely general information. For instance, on seeing an eldar carving, you would recognise it as Eldar, but gain no further information.
[...]


I'm sorry, I don't get this one. So you know what lore is required to understand the thing, but not IC? Because otherwise you'd know a thing is Eldar if you (IC) know it requires Eldar lore to get. As such, even looking for a person that knows about it (i.e. doing the smartarse thing) is severely hindered: what if you're a new character that doesn't know everyone else's skills? How do you find someone with Eldar lore without IC being able to know it's about Eldars? (I'm just continuing with the example.)

I appreciate this is a once-per-combat talent, which tries to balance out how little it actually gives you, but even then I think the benefit you actually get is too small for even first talent for sages at all... Maybe I'm missing something :\
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Re: Sage

Postby Sparks » Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:17 pm

The point is you know IC - That's a Xenos thing, or that's an eldar thing.

So, to expand on the existing example, you see this

Image

You have no Lore Xenos. However, if you have the talent, you know with absolute certainty, in character, that it is a Xenos marking, not heretical, or technical.

With the upgrade, you get to know, IC, that it's an Eldar marking. Definately eldar, no doubt about it.

Without any of the above, IC you have no clue at all what it is, other than a marking.

With the right lore, you get more specific info. So, say 1, you recognise that it's a symbol used to designate groups of eldar. 2, woulc let you know it's a craftworld Symbol. 3, that it's for craftworld Ulthwe, 4 that Ulthwe is normally found on the eastern edge of the Eye of terror, and favour farseers and shock tactics. 5 and 6, more info. so on and so forth.
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Re: Sage

Postby Gray » Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:34 pm

I'm still not wowed with it I must confess.
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Re: Sage

Postby mindwanders » Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:28 am

I think the principle is good. But, I think it's under powered. The problem is that we need to walk the fine line between that and giving sage's lore 1 in everything.

What if the basic power told you which lores would provide you with more information. Then we have an upgrade so you know which one would tell you the most useful info(or let you answer a question?). Another upgrade that let's you see two cards from a technical deck without having the skill?
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