Downtime System - I Think I Broke It

Discussions pertinent to the rules rewrite

Moderator: Artemis

Downtime System - I Think I Broke It

Postby mindwanders » Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:28 pm

If you think you've found a loop hole or something we haven't covered, please post it here and we'll take a look?
Gordon McDonald
Captain Bartholomew Noxof the Milady De Winter
Former Ref
google.com/+GordonMcDonald
User avatar
mindwanders
Lord-Captain
Lord-Captain
 
Posts: 326
Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 8:40 pm

Re: Downtime System - I Think I Broke It

Postby hofoengenar » Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:38 pm

Not quite a loophole per say, just wanted to check on this: Given the cost at character creation for each military ship type (200 for a destroyer, 400 for a frigate, 800 for a light cruiser and 1600 for a cruiser) the stat differences between each type seem very small.

For 1600 points I can have (assuming the combat, exploration and cargo points add, while the speed doesn't as all ships will add their combat, exploration and cargo ratings to an endeavour but they can still only do their set number of operations):

A single cruiser: 200 combat, 100 exploration, 25 cargo, speed 1
2 light cruisers: 390 combat, 200 exploration, 50 cargo, speed 1
4 frigates: 540 combat, 500 exploration, 100 cargo, speed 2
8 destroyers: 880 combat, 1200 exploration, 0 cargo, speed 3

In fact, 2 destroyers (total cost 400 points at character creation) have a combined value of 220 combat, 300 exploration, 0 cargo, speed 3, which is better than a 1600 point cruiser in all regards except cargo.

I realise that the repair time will be higher if you have multiple ships, but it basically seems like fleets of smaller craft are vastly, vastly more powerful than the smaller numbers of larger vessels that cost the same amount...
Slice
Captain in the Pitbulls.
Definitely not a doctor.
hofoengenar
Marshall
Marshall
Slice
 
Posts: 93
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:29 pm

Re: Downtime System - I Think I Broke It

Postby Yoda » Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:54 pm

Ignoring all stats, systems, and everything else... four ships attacking one ship is usually better than one ship attacking one ship.

A fleet versus a single ship is almost always going to go in favour of the fleet. But the smaller ships are also easier to break than the big ships. One on one, a cruiser will always out-perform a destroyer, but a fleet of destroyers taking down a cruiser is kind of what destroyers are designed to do.
- Yoda.
Do you hear the voices too?!
User avatar
Yoda
Storyteller
Storyteller
Code Cultist
 
Posts: 791
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:03 am
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Re: Downtime System - I Think I Broke It

Postby hofoengenar » Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:00 pm

Yep. I'm just pretty sure 2 destroyers shouldn't have a good chance to taking down a cruiser (and if they do, surely they should only cost half the price of a cruiser, rather than an eighth)...

What I'm basically asking is, from a rules point of view, is there a balancing factor? Otherwise, why would I ever want anything other than a fleet of destroyers? Given they're seemingly considerably better than a large ship and give far more flexibility in that you can split them up and send them different places...
Slice
Captain in the Pitbulls.
Definitely not a doctor.
hofoengenar
Marshall
Marshall
Slice
 
Posts: 93
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:29 pm

Re: Downtime System - I Think I Broke It

Postby Yoda » Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:09 pm

Upkeep.

The upkeep for a Destroyer is 174WU.
The upkeep for a Cruiser is 187WU.

Multiple ships cost more to keep going. Now, maybe you'll make that back from your adventures, but it's much harder to keep four ships in the air than one.
- Yoda.
Do you hear the voices too?!
User avatar
Yoda
Storyteller
Storyteller
Code Cultist
 
Posts: 791
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:03 am
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Re: Downtime System - I Think I Broke It

Postby hofoengenar » Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:17 pm

Actually, I was meaning to ask about that as well. In the 'Overview & Ship Traits' tab of the Ship Stats document it says "Ships now have no direct upkeep, they must instead replenish their MP and EP", but you've then listed an upkeep cost in the 'Ship List' tab...
Slice
Captain in the Pitbulls.
Definitely not a doctor.
hofoengenar
Marshall
Marshall
Slice
 
Posts: 93
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:29 pm

Re: Downtime System - I Think I Broke It

Postby Yoda » Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:30 pm

I'm going to chalk that up to... something.

Anyway, the same theory applies. The Lunar-class Cruiser has 200MP and 100EP, so has 300 points that need to be replenished after use. A Cobra-class Destroyer has 110MP and 150EP, meaning it has 260 points that need to be replenished after user. Replenishing two ships is much more costly than replenishing one.
- Yoda.
Do you hear the voices too?!
User avatar
Yoda
Storyteller
Storyteller
Code Cultist
 
Posts: 791
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:03 am
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Re: Downtime System - I Think I Broke It

Postby hofoengenar » Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:43 pm

Again, according to the rules (Revised Downtimes this time) one Resupply Asset action can be used to resupply any number of assets that utilise the same resource.

That basically makes it that the only downside of having more MP or EP is that you then need to resupply them all at some point. It's not much of a downside. If you only feel like resupplying 200 MP next downtime then only use 2 of your 8 destroyers. You're not forced to use them all, it gives you the same effect as using a cruiser and you still have 6 destroyers spare in case something unexpected happens.

It really feels to me like either the stats need changed so there's more of a gap between the classes of ship, or the costs at character generation need changed majorly to take account of the power levels...
Slice
Captain in the Pitbulls.
Definitely not a doctor.
hofoengenar
Marshall
Marshall
Slice
 
Posts: 93
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:29 pm

Re: Downtime System - I Think I Broke It

Postby Yoda » Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:51 pm

hofoengenar wrote:Again, according to the rules (Revised Downtimes this time) one Resupply Asset action can be used to resupply any number of assets that utilise the same resource.


Yes, but you need to pay for it.

The base difficulty to resupply an asset is equal to the number of resource points that need to be resupplied, while the cost is equal to 75% of that value.


You're right, you don't have to use all of your ships, and you don't have to resupply them all either. On the other hand, if you're not feeding them, and they have nothing to do, your ships might mutiny on you.

I also think the phrase "6 destroyers spare" is wandering into the "taking the piss" territory. Even the Imperial Navy doesn't have a spare six destroyers lying around in case one breaks. If we had a group come up to us and say "we want 3 destroyers each", I wouldn't be likely to allow it offhand.
- Yoda.
Do you hear the voices too?!
User avatar
Yoda
Storyteller
Storyteller
Code Cultist
 
Posts: 791
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:03 am
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Re: Downtime System - I Think I Broke It

Postby hofoengenar » Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:59 pm

I'll admit that pretty much all of this from my point of view comes down to our group having burned a load of points on a light cruiser. From what I can see of the current rules, we'd have been much, much better off spending half the points to get two destroyers instead and investing the rest elsewhere. They'd be better in a fight, much better exploring and be able to do three endeavors each downtime rather than one, for the loss of a little cargo space. Then we'd get 400 character gen points back, which is a lot of other stuff.

It would only cost us more to resupply if we used the extra MP or EP, which we'd only do if it seemed necessary. Given a ship with speed 3 can take part in 3 endeavors I assume you don't have to contribute all of the ships EP or MP to an endeavor, otherwise what does it do with that 3rd point of speed?

I just don't see what we've gained by going for the bigger ship. 2 destroyers, or a destroyer and a frigate seem far better in pretty much every way and cost much less.
Slice
Captain in the Pitbulls.
Definitely not a doctor.
hofoengenar
Marshall
Marshall
Slice
 
Posts: 93
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:29 pm

Next

Return to Rules 2.0 Rewrites

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest